From Athlete to Hostage Negotiator

Are you using your unique gifts and talents? Terry Tucker is a speaker, author, and coach at Motivational Check LLC. In this episode, Terry shares his career story, why he went from being a basketball player to a police officer, and why we should think with our minds instead of our fears and insecurities.

🎙️Talking Points: 

(1:23) Designing your life around your purpose

(4:01) Transitioning from being an athlete to a police officer

(10:05) Terry’s experience in law enforcement

(14:45) Becoming a SWAT team hostage negotiator 

(17:18) Paying attention to body language

(26:47) Writing his book “Sustainable Excellence”

🔗Connect with Terry:

• Website: https://www.motivationalcheck.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terry-tucker-9b5605179/ 
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/motivationalcheck 
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/terrytucker2012/
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sustainableexcellenceauthor/

🔗Connect with Tom Finn:

• Instagram: https://instagram.com/therealtomfinn
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/therealtomfinn/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@therealtomfinn
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/therealtomfinn/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/therealtomfinn
• Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/therealtomfinn
• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@therealtomfinn

Tom Finn:

Hey, hey there. Thanks for tuning into the talent empowerment podcast. We're here to help you discover your true purpose, step up your game at work and live your happiest life possible. We're going to unpack the tools and tactics of successful humans to guide you towards your own purpose, find happiness, and of course empower your career. I am your humble little host Tom Finn. And on the show today, we have Terry Tucker, Terry, my friend. Welcome to the show.

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Terry Tucker:

Well thanks for having me on, Tom. I'm really looking forward to talking with you today.

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Tom Finn:

Well, we are looking forward to hearing your story, uh, because there is so much to unpack around Terry Tucker. If you don't know him, let me just take a moment and introduce you to this sought after speaker who believes in the power of a good story to motivate, inspire, and help people lead uncommon and extraordinary lives. And we'll get to that in just a second. He combines his 11 year cancer journey with diverse business, business, athletic coaching, and law enforcement backgrounds to help you live your uncommon and extraordinary purpose. He's published a book of course called Sustainable Excellence, 10 Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life. And he spent some time as a SWAT team hostage negotiator, which we will also get to. But before we get there, Terry, let's start with this idea around purpose. How does one develop and design an extraordinary life?

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Terry Tucker:

Yeah, I think Viktor Frankl, the concentration camp survivor during World War II, said it best that we have a moral obligation to find our purpose in life and to live it. And we sign it, we kind of look at purpose as a singular thing. And I don't think it is. I look back on my life. I was, you know, when I was young, it was athletics, it was basketball. I received a scholarship to play basketball in college at the Citadel. And after that, it was a shift to, I felt my purpose was to sort of follow in my grandfather's footsteps and go into law enforcement. And now that, in all honesty, I'm probably coming to the end of my life, it's to put as much goodness, positivity, motivation, love back into the world as I possibly can. And I think we all would like, and certainly would be super if this would set up this way, that our job or our occupation was our purpose. I think so many people get caught up in that and it's like, well, I haven't found my purpose. So what I'm doing now can't possibly be what I'm supposed to be doing. But your job could be something that's over here that you use to pay the bills, but your purpose is to write or be a podcast host or be an activist or whatever it is you feel in your heart that you're supposed to do. So I think the way you find your purpose is you use your unique gifts and talents and you find out what you're interested in. Like I'm not a numbers guy. So if you said, Terry, you know, your purpose is accounting, I'd probably be like, nah, I don't really think that it is. I think it's something more along dealing with people more on a daily basis, which is why I loved being in law enforcement. You know, my first two jobs out of college were in the corporate headquarters of Wendy's International in their marketing department and as a hospital administrator. So, you know, I was a suit and tie eight to five, Monday through Friday kind of guy, and then made a major pivot, to working nights and weekends and getting shot at and all that other kind of fun stuff because I felt it really was my purpose in life.

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Tom Finn:

Okay, so let's unpack this a little bit because this is really important for people to understand how to do this. So let's go back to basketball purpose. That was the first purpose. You had this purpose to be an athlete and you felt a strong calling to being an athlete. So how do you transition from that? When you, you know, your career in that segment is over into something else. Like what process do you go through to figure out the next step?

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Terry Tucker:

Well, my process was kind of interesting. So I graduate from college. I'm the first person in my family to graduate from college. And I want to follow in the footsteps of my grandfather. My grandfather was a Chicago police officer from 1924 to 1954. So was in Chicago during Prohibition when alcohol was outlawed in the United States during the Great Depression, the late 1930s, or 1920s, early 1930s. And when the gangs, Al Capone and those guys were shooting up the town, and he was actually shot in the line of duty with his own gun. It was not a serious injury, he was shot in the ankle. But my dad, who was an infant at the time, always remembered the stories my grandmother told of that knock on the door of, you know, Mrs. Tucker, grab your son, come with us, your husband's been shot. So when I expressed an interest in going into law enforcement, my dad was, absolutely not. You're going to go to college, you're going to major in business. You're gonna get out, get a great job, get married, have 2.4 kids and live happily ever after. But that's what my dad wanted me to do.

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And so when I graduated from college, I had a choice. My dad and my grandmother were both dying of cancer at the same time. So I could have said, sorry, dad, you know what? I'm gonna go blaze my own trail or out of love and respect for you, I will do what you want me to do. So if you understand the backstory, My resume makes a little bit more sense now. I did what my father wanted me to, so I took those first two jobs in business, and I sort of joke I did what every good son did, waited till my dad passed away, and then I followed my own dreams. And, you know, I was a 37-year-old rookie police officer. I just know that I took a whole lot more talent all in the police academy than my younger counterparts, so.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, fair enough. And to be expected at 37, but bravo for you going through that process and actually committing to that path. I think what's really interesting that you said is that we all at some point have to realize that our parents cannot define our purpose and our parents really at some point can't tell us what to do. I mean, we, you know, we want the love, we need their love. We want their support wholeheartedly. And I hope that everybody has that. But at some point. you've got to sort of stand on your own feet and say, hey, look, this is what I really want to do. This is who I want to be when I grow up.

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Terry Tucker:

Yeah, it does. And you know, I know why my father did what he did. He wanted what in his mind was, I want more for my son. And my mom and dad were unbelievably great people. I mean, I'm six foot eight, played college basketball at the Citadel. I got a brother who's six foot seven who pitched for the University of Notre Dame. Another brother who's six foot six, who was drafted by the Cleveland Cavaliers in the National Basketball Association. And then my dad was six five. So I started to joke that, If you sat behind our family in church growing up, there wasn't a prayer's chance you were gonna see anything that was going on in front of you. But my parents taught us the value of loving each other, caring for each other, supporting each other. What a family was all about. So when it came time to, hey dad, I know you're sick and dying, I was absolutely no way was I gonna abandon my father and say, sorry dad, I'm gonna do my own thing. you and mom showed us the value of family. So if it would have taken 30 years for my father to die, I would have stayed there and helped my mother to deal with that. So you just, I learned from my parents and I hopefully I transferred that to what my wife and I have taught our daughter as well, the importance of family. So my dad didn't do what he did out of spite. He did it out of love, but you're right. I mean, at some point in time, you gotta say, hey, I'm an adult, I've gotta do what I feel is right in my heart.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, so beautifully said because the family structure is so important to defining who we are as people. We take a lot of whatever our growing up was and we put it on our shoulders and we say, that's who I am. And it's kind of a yes and no. Yes, you are a little bit of that person, but it also doesn't have to define your purpose. It doesn't have to define your future. And certainly you can carve your own path. So let's go back to this purpose piece. That I think is so important, Terry. So when, so you're playing basketball, you move into sort of corporate roles based on some family stuff, and then you go into the police academy at 37, and you felt like that was your purpose, why? At that point in time. So, I think that's the first thing I would say to people who are interested in the police academy. I think that's the first thing I would say to people who are interested in the police academy.

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Terry Tucker:

You know, I had great experiences at Wendy's and being a hospital administrator. Met a lot of great people, grew as a person, matured and things like that. But I always felt something was missing. You know, it wasn't what I was supposed to do. And you can imagine the conversation. My wife and I were living in Santa Barbara. You know, she had married me when I was a hospital administrator. And I got a circular in the mail that said, you know, go to Santa Barbara City College, take this course if you do. you can apply to be a police officer in any jurisdiction in California. And so, you know, that night at dinner, I'm like, uh, hun, would you mind if I, and my wife has been incredibly supportive. So took the course, got on with the Santa Barbara police department as a reserve police officer. I was a customer service manager at the time for an academic publishing company. So I'd work my job all week, come home Friday night, put on my uniform, go to roll call and work all Friday night. And my wife would say, you would come home exhausted, but with this incredible grin on your face. And so when our daughter was born and we moved to Cincinnati, I said to her, look, I want to do this full time. It fulfills me. I'm making a difference in people's lives. And so she supported me in that. And that's when I became a police officer at 37 years old.

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Tom Finn:

Wow, well done. What was the Academy experience like at 37 for all of you out there that are interested in jumping into the police Academy mid-career?

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Terry Tucker:

I mean, it's an academic component. It's a physical fitness, learning how to defend yourselves component. You know, it's how to talk to people, how to deal with people, a lot of law and things like that. You know, I mean, fortunately or unfortunately, I think we ask police officers to sort of be jack of all trades. You know, in things that, you know, I mean, when I was in the, you know, a police officer, we didn't carry Narcan. Now they want you to carry Narcan. And I look at that and say, Well, I understand why for people that OD on opioids and things like that, but I didn't carry nitroglycerin when I went to somebody with a heart attack or insulin when I went to somebody who was having a diabetic issue. So, I mean, we just keep piling stuff on. So people always ask me, not a lot these days because law enforcement isn't something that people really wanna get into, but what do I need to do to be a good police officer? And I always tell them, put your devices down. Go out on the street and talk to the homeless guy. Go up to the penthouse and talk to that person. Because if you can talk to people, if you can engage in conversation, you can learn so much, you can find out so much. But if the only way you can communicate with somebody is, you know, I'm gonna send them a text or, you know, an email, you're gonna be very frustrated in that line of work. So a lot of it is, you know, face to face, figuring things out, trying to figure out who's right, who's wrong, who's telling you the truth. And everybody lies to you as a cop. That's just something you have to, everybody's lying to you. So you have to figure out who's lying the least, and I guess you end up taking the other person to jail based on your probable ‘cause.

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Tom Finn:

Well, that probably makes everybody feel uncomfortable hearing that, but I know there was a little bit of tongue in cheek there. We'll take it with a grain of salt for sure, Terry. So now you're in the police department, you're living this life that in your mind, yeah, this is cool. This is what grandpa did back in the day with running around the streets of Chicago and I'm doing it in Cincinnati and loving it. So you sort of moved your way up. And then you got into some specialized units. Talk about that a little bit.

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Terry Tucker:

Yeah, so I spent the first five years in a marked car, in uniform, answering radio runs and doing things like that. And then I had an opportunity to go to the drug unit and be an undercover narcotics investigator. And as soon as I say that, everybody starts laughing. It's like, wait a minute, you were six foot eight. How could you possibly have gone undercover? And I never…

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Tom Finn:

You hide next to a tree. I'm not sure how that's gonna work. I mean– 

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Terry Tucker:

Right? You don't get the branch.

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Tom Finn:

I don't remember the six eight guy, not at all. He looks like everybody else.

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Terry Tucker:

Well, the funny thing is I never changed my appearance. I never grew a beard, I never grew my hair long, I never did anything like that. And the reason I think I was somewhat successful in that is that what motivates the illicit drug industry, and it is an industry, make no mistake about that, is greed. And if you have money, you will find someone that will sell you drugs. And I mean, sometimes you have to do a little bit of acting. I remember one time I... My partner who I rode with in uniform also came down to the drug unit and she called, she was working a day shift. I was working nights and she called me and she said, Hey, I've got these young people that want to come down from Dayton, Ohio to Cincinnati and party, but they don't have any money. So they want to sell you drugs. They want to sell you mushrooms. Will you buy from them? I'm like, sure. But what's, what's the backstory? I mean, you can't, you know, I don't know this guy. I mean, you know, what they're doing is illegal. So we came up with this story that I posed as a professor of from the University of Cincinnati. Now the only thing I know about metal is that if you put it out in the rain, it rusts. That's my extent of knowledge of metallurgy. But I met these kids in a park in Cincinnati. They jump out of the car, they get in, they show me the mushrooms, I give them the money. And then instead of partying in Cincinnati, they became guests of the Hamilton County Justice Center for the evening. And that, so you act a little bit, you play a little bit and stuff like that, but it's. It's an incredibly dangerous job. I mean, I was shot out a couple of times. My colleagues had guns pulled on them, make them buys and things like that. So it's a very dangerous job, but it's also a lot of fun. And I think we did some good.

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Tom Finn:

I can't even imagine being in that situation, but kudos to you and thank you for going down that path and that line of work, having the courage to do it. Probably not for everyone, but you got a kick out of it for a few years. And then you went from the drug unit and being undercover to another space in police work.

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Terry Tucker:

I did, I became a SWAT team hostage negotiator. And for those who don't understand how SWAT is usually configured, there's usually a tactical group, which are the men and women who, you know, have all the toys and the guns and all that kind of stuff. And then there's a negotiating group. And we used to always joke with the tactical team that if we did our job right, you didn't get to use any of your toys and things like that. So our job was to basically... We always used to get credit for it. You know, you talk that guy out, great job. What we really did is we listened that person out. And if you, there was a formula that we used, and I think it's kind of a good formula, it applies I think to life in general. It was 7/38/55. And it had to do with how we communicate with each other. 7% of how we communicate are the words that we use. 38% of it is the tone of voice that we use with those words. and then 55% of it is our body language and facial expressions. So if you think about it as a police officer, almost 100% of what we did was face to face with another individual. So if, you know, Tom, if I'm talking to you, you know, about something and, you know, I'm looking at you and you're kind of, you know, looking around, well, maybe you're looking to run. Maybe you're looking to get out of this situation. Or if you're balling up your fist, maybe you want to fight me or something like that. So I can see those things, take those visual cues, and do what's necessary. I can sit you down, I can handcuff you, I can put you in my car, whatever's appropriate for why I'm there. But as negotiators, we didn't have that 55% because we were not with the person that was either barricaded or had taken hostages. So we had to figure things out based on what people were saying, what they weren't saying, and how they were saying it. So I didn't have the luxury of saying something and then see the person, you know, either on the other end of the phone or on the other side of the wall, you know, get this look on their face like, oh gosh, what an idiot he is. No, that's not what I'm talking about. So it was a whole different way of trying to communicate with somebody who, I mean, let's face it, was obviously in crisis at the time we're trying to do that communication.

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Tom Finn:

So that's really interesting. 45% is words and tone and 55% is physical body language is the way that you really broke that down.

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Terry Tucker:

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, the majority of the way we communicate is through our physical bodies and our facial expressions. It's not the words we use and it's not the tone of voice. Majority of it is our body.

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Tom Finn:

So this is not just for police work. I mean, if we think about this just in our common everyday interaction, whether it's at the grocery store or with our kids or in business, 45% are words in tone, words broken down at 7%, tone broken down to 38%. That means a lot. But our body language, whether on video, because we do a lot of that now, right? or in person physically being next to someone, being able to reach out and shake their hand, that body language piece is 55%. So how do you manage all of it in an appropriate way as a police officer or as just a member of a nice community doing the right things?

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Terry Tucker:

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you and I are talking face to face and, you know, I'm standing there with my arms crossed, you know, I mean, that's a closed body language position. You know, I'm not real receptive of what you're saying. And, you know, if you're talking and I'm, you know, playing on my device, obviously I'm not paying attention. I mean, so those are the things. I mean, you know that. I mean, whether you realize it, whether you're cognizant of it, you know, it's just how are you reading that body language? Your brain is reading it. Your subconscious brain is reading it, whether you even realize it or not. So, I mean, part of it is how you engage with people. And one of the things that we were taught as negotiators was, well, actually two things that are important. One is to smile, smile all the time. So even if I'm on the phone or I'm on the other side of a wall, I'm smiling, you know? And the other thing is to be curious. What's going on here? How did we come to this situation? We used a lot of how and what. questions, we tried to stay away from why questions because why questions sound accusatory. Why did you do that, Tom? Oh, wait a minute, is he accusing me of something as opposed to what got us here, Tom, you know, that's, that's a softer way and easier way. And it's it's that and the other thing we did, we called it parroting. It's called mirroring now is you would say something. And then I would repeat to you either the important words there. or the last three words that you said, but I would do it kind of in a curious way. A curious way. And then you would go silent. And what that did was get the person to say, oh, he understands what I'm saying. He just repeated back or parroted back to me those three words or the most important words that I said. So the thing you're trying to do is develop a relationship. You're trying to get this person to trust you. so that they, what did they say about it? Negotiation is trying to get the other side to have your way. And that's really what it is. I'm trying to get you to do what I want you to do. And by me asking you how and what questions, whether you realize it or not, I'm engaging you to help me get you out or get the hostages out safely. How are we gonna do this, Tom? Well, now I've engaged you. I mean, you could say, I don't care, but you're gonna start thinking about that. So we're trying to develop a relationship in an incredibly stressful situation with two people who have never met each other before and can't see each other.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, I got to throw this back to my friend, PK, who was on the show a few weeks ago and she said the exact same thing that you're talking about, Terry in this how and what questioning, but her context was as an HR consultant, a very high level, very high powered HR consultant,  been around the block, knows the game, but she was talking about how to treat people and how to really get under the hood and understand what they're looking for and how to help them. And she said the exact same thing you have done in hostage negotiation. She's saying about general conversation. We've got to use how and what questioning and get rid of that word. Why? Because it's almost like the word you, when we start with you, Terry have been, right? It's accusatory, you know, why have you done that? Terry it's accusatory. And we, and we instantly on the receiving end. sort of clench up a little bit, whether it's physical or emotional, we clench up, right? And so I love this kind of play between somebody in HR consulting and somebody who's been in SWAT and hostage negotiations. And we're saying the same thing.

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Terry Tucker:

We are. Yeah, it really is. And that's, you know, and what that gives you is what we used to call tactical empathy. So I want to understand why we're in this situation. Not agree. I mean, you know, I mean, sometimes we go after a homicide suspect and they start spilling about why they ended up shooting this person. It's like, I'm not agreeing that what you did was right. But I do want to understand what got us to this point. And by doing that, you're developing that relationship. You're developing that trust with the other individual that, hey, he gets me, doesn't agree with me, but he gets me in what we're talking about.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, I love how you have simplified this process into something that we can all understand. So 7% words, 38% tone, 55% body language. We wanna smile, we wanna be curious, and we wanna ask how and what questions and use the last three words as a playback in sort of a mirroring or parrot format that allows us to create a level of empathy. uh, with somebody that we're, we're talking to or, or working with in business, which I think is so well said. So, all right, before we move on, uh, favorite story from, uh, from your police work.

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Terry Tucker:

I'll tell you a funny one. I'll leave the tragic one out unless you think we have time for it. So I happened to be working this particular night. We were not a full-time SWAT team. We carried pagers. So if something kicked off, we went to the scene. But I was working. I was a sergeant by this time. So I was in a marked car. I got to the scene pretty quick and I'm talking to the uniform guys there and like, what's the deal? It's like, he's drunk. He's barricaded himself in his house with a gun and the hostage is his wife. I said, okay, do you have him on the phone? He said, yes. So usually in a negotiation, it's hours down the road before you start, you've developed that trust where you can talk about ways of coming out, ways of resolving this situation. So I'm on the phone with this guy for about 10 minutes and I just had a feeling. And so I said to him, what would it take for you to let your wife go and for you to come out? And there was this long pause and he said, give me a beer. And I said, if I gave you a beer, do I have your word that you would let your wife go? He said, do I have your word that I could drink it? I said, yes, you have my word. Will you let your wife go and will you come out? Yes. So I gave $5 to one of the officers. He said, go down to the grocery store, buy a beer, gave it to the tactical team. They put it on the front porch, call them back. And I'm like, hey, your beer's on the front porch, but you don't get it until your wife comes out and you come out with your hands up, no gun. He's like, do I still have your word that I could drink it? I said, you absolutely have my word that you can drink. All of a sudden the front door flies open, here comes his wife, here he comes with his hands up, we handcuff him, let him drink his beer, and off to jail he goes. And I think that's another point of negotiation. We never lied to people. I mean, people would say to us, hey, I'll come out or I'll let the hostage go, but you gotta promise me I'm not gonna go to jail. And we would have to say, I'm sorry, but when you come out, you are gonna go to jail. And then we would try to deflect the conversation to something that was more positive. And the reason we never lied, it wasn't like, you know, it's some great tactic or something like, no, it was a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, there was a very good chance we would be back negotiating with this exact same person over this exact same issue. And if they ever felt, Hey Tucker, you lied to me the last time, then my credibility was, was blown. And you're going to have to bring some, another negotiator in to, you know, to fill my place. So it was just basically realizing we were, you know, this wasn't a one-time deal. We. There were repeat people that we negotiated with throughout the years.

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Tom Finn:

Yeah, well said. Building long-term relationships, no matter what business we're in is helpful and can be valuable. And I have a saying goes a little something like this, be kind to your future self. So future self, a few years from now wants to make sure that we didn't lie to that, uh, that person we were negotiating with, and we can walk into that conversation with our head held high, so be kind to your future self. My friends, that's an important one.

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Terry, so then you leave this career and you write a book on sustainable excellence, 10 principles to leading your uncommon and extraordinary life. And he did not plug me to plug his book. So I want to make that note, but I do wanna learn about it. So help us understand sort of where that came from and some of the principles.

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Terry Tucker:

So, Sustainable Excellence was really a book that was born out of two conversations I had. When I left law enforcement, I started a school security consulting business and I coached girls high school basketball. And so the first conversation was with a former player that I had coached who had moved to Colorado where my wife and I live with her fiance and the four of us had dinner one night. And I remember saying to her after dinner that I was excited that she was living close and I could watch her find and live her purpose. She got real quiet for a while. And then she looked at me and she said, "'Well, Coach, what do you think my purpose is?' I said, "'I have absolutely no idea what your purpose is, "'but that's what your life should be about, "'finding the reason you were put on the face of this earth, "'using your unique gifts and talents "'and living that reason.'" So that was one conversation. And then the second conversation was with the young man in college who reached out to me on social media and asked me what I thought were the most important things he should learn. not to just be successful in his job or in business, but to be successful in life. And Tom, I didn't want to give him that, get up early, work hard, help, those are important things, but I wanted to see if I could go deeper with him. So I spent some time and I was taking notes and kind of had these 10 thoughts, these 10 ideas, these 10 principles. And so I sent them to him. And then I stepped back and I was like, I got a life story that fits underneath this principle. or I know somebody whose life emulates that principle. So literally, I had my leg amputated because of my cancer journey. While I was healing from that amputation, I sat down at the computer every day and I built stories. And they're real stories about real people underneath each of the principles. And that's how sustainable excellence came to be.

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Tom Finn:

Wow. Well, wow. Well done. Uh, that takes a lot of energy and effort to put all of it together. And I love the frame in that you're trying to help a young person along their journey and it becomes a book. Uh, those, those are the best ways to, to write. If you're thinking about doing that and you're out there trying to figure out where to get started, think about what has impacted your life and start there. So give us, uh, give us one or two of the principles that we can think about. Maybe a couple of your favorites out of the 10.

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Terry Tucker:

Sure, so one of the favorites, and this is the one that resonates with me, and it's always fun as an author, when you've got these sort of 10 principles and somebody reaches out, because there's always one that resonates with the reader specifically. But the one that really resonates with me, and I'm almost sorry to say that it does, because I've done this so many times in my life, is that, and this is the principle, most people think with their fears and their insecurities instead of using their minds. And I know I've done that. I know I've wanted to do things. It's like, oh, wait a minute. Do I have the knowledge? Do I have the skills? Do I have the ability to do that? Or what will people say about me if I fail or I'm not successful at this? That's thinking with our fears and our insecurities. That's not thinking with, well, what can I learn from this? And why would this be good? We always seem to go to the negative. I remember reading somewhere recently that 80% of our thoughts are negative related and that our mind works. at the speed of about 1000 words a minute. Now I don't know about you, but there's no way I can process 1000 words in 60 seconds. So you've got to sort of pick and choose what goes on in there. So that's a big one, and it's a big one because I know I've done it. There's another principle that you are the person that you're looking to become. You may not be that person. And I kind of look at that as, yeah, I was in corporate America. but I really was a police officer. I just hadn't gotten to that point yet. I was, but I wasn't. And so, you're always, you are the person you're looking to become. And I always say the principles aren't in any order. Number one isn't more important than number seven, for example, but I do think the last one is really probably the most important. And the last one is love is the most important word in any language. I- When I was growing up, I was a big fan of John Wooden, who was a basketball coach at UCLA. And I remember sitting one time, I don't know, I was 12, 13 years old, and had a pad of paper, and Coach Wooden was being interviewed. And I was looking for some good Xs and Os that I could apply to basketball and stuff. And so I got this pad of paper, and the reporter says, well, what do you want your players to learn? What do you think is the most important thing they learn? And he said, I want my players to understand the importance of love. love themselves, love their teammates, love what they do. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, come on, give me some good Xs and Os, because I was a kid and I wasn't mature enough. I didn't understand what he was trying to say. But I think, you know, as one of the most successful basketball coaches of all time, here was a man that understood that, you know, it's not what, it's not basketball, it's what basketball teaches you that's important. And part of that, and the big part of that, is having love in your life.

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Tom Finn:

I love the way you said that I'm going to use love, uh, because it's so important that we as humans figure out how to love one another, how to build community, how to build trust and empathy. And that creates a harmonious energy where we can be our best selves and we can put love back into the world. Right. And so I think that's so important. Um, and you know, shout out to John wouldn't, I mean, one of the greatest thinkers of all time. not just greatest basketball coaches, uh, because the way he modeled leadership was just exceptional. Uh, you can't really knock the way he took himself to work every day. Uh, so well said for, for throwing out a wooden reference. I love it, Terry. Uh, Terry, look, I have enjoyed having you on the show. This has been a fantastic chat and I know others are going to want to, uh, find you, read your book, reach out, say hello. Um, where can they, uh, where can they do that?

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Terry Tucker:

Yeah, I have a blog and every day I put up a thought for the day. And with that thought usually comes a question about how maybe you could apply that to your life. But my blog and everything, Terry Tucker and everything that, you know, getting to me, my book and everything, everything there is at www.motivationalcheck.com

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Tom Finn:

We'll put it in the show notes so that you can click right on it and find Terry. We'll also put his LinkedIn. If you want to connect with Terry on LinkedIn, what an extraordinary life, uh, you have lived. Thank you so much for the great work that you're doing. Really appreciate you.

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Terry Tucker:

Well, Tom, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed talking with you today.

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Tom Finn:

Thanks Terry and thank you for joining the talent empowerment podcast. We hope you've discovered your true calling, found your dream career and are living your best life. Get ready to dive back into all things, career and happiness on the next episode. We'll see you then.

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